Letters to the Editor 6/19
Amidst the Horror, Goodness Still Shines
Editor, Times-Dispatch: When the United States Memorial Holocaust Museum opened in 1993, the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City had not been bombed and 9/11 had not taken place. Terrorist acts had not come to America yet. However, when I went to visit the museum, I noticed something different from any other museum I had ever toured. There were traffic barriers out front, security cameras, metal detectors, X-ray machines, and armed guards. I thought to myself, why does this museum need so much security?
Part of the mission statement of the museum states the following objectives: "confront hatred, prevent genocide, promote human dignity, and strengthen democracy." All of these seem like worthwhile goals to me. Then the answer to my question became crystal clear. The museum documents the "Final Solution" to the Jewish question and there are still people out there who wish Hitler had been successful. They still deny facts and are motivated by blind hatred. Unfortunately, one of these people attacked the museum recently and killed guard Stephen Johns.
When the news broke, I was filled with anger toward the gunman. Then I looked at all the rescue workers and the police officers helping people. It reminded me of the room at the end of the museum tour that allows people to reflect on the horror they have seen while looking at the many monuments to our freedom in this wonderful country of ours. I decided then to shift my focus. The good in people will always outshine the evil in others.
Martin Plotkin.
Richmond.
Everyone Must Hold President to His Word
Editor, Times-Dispatch: Didn't President Barack Obama state that military spending would be included in the budget instead of being hidden by deceptive "supplementals"?
Republicans, Democrats, independents, and "we the people" need to hold him to his word on that matter.
Paul Magill Smith.
Richmond.
Torture Should Be Used in Extreme Cases
Editor, Times-Dispatch: In response to the letter by Tom Little, "Spy Pros Know Torture Doesn't Work," I could not disagree more. Torture does work. Governments have been using torture for centuries to maintain their power and find and destroy their enemies, both external and internal. One has only to look at Nazi Germany and the infamous Gestapo or the former Soviet Union with the NKVD and KGB.
The examples Little gave of people who did not use torture in eliciting information from the enemy are fine -- maybe. (For example, Orin Deforrest, the CIA agent, who did not use torture in Vietnam because his subjects knew that if they did not cooperate they would be turned over to the South Vietnamese who would.) There are plenty of cases where torture was used to make the "enemy" talk and the information was extremely valuable. As an aside, why would Abu Zubaydah be tortured if he was providing "good" information? It sounds suspiciously like the individual making the claim that Zubaydah was cooperating until torture was used has a personal agenda to serve in making a statement that cannot be confirmed. (We will not know the answer to this conundrum unless the transcripts and records of what he divulged are made available and include under what conditions he divulged the information.)
The point here is to try to end this political discussion on torture. This issue, like global warming, has become politicized and truth has consequently suffered. I am not advocating the widespread use of torture; it should and must be used in extreme cases. Does anyone believe the Obama administration -- or any administration -- would not use torture if it had someone in custody who it knew or suspected had information that would avert an attack within the U.S. that could result in thousands of deaths? Would anyone like to be the president who had to stand up in front of the nation and families of the dead and say he did not use every means to avert the attack?
Andrew M. Brantley.
Williamsburg.
Melting Pot Isn't Melting Anymore
Editor, Times-Dispatch: Whatever happened to the saying, "He's an American!"? I grew up thinking that people who lived in our country were Americans. My mother's family was German, back a generation or so, my father's was Scotch Irish, also back a generation or so. My husband's family was directly from Scotland, with other connections back further. It never occurred to us, or anyone I knew, to call our relatives German-Americans, Irish-Americans, or Scottish-Americans.
I grew up in New York City -- so, yes, I was living with a lot of different nationalities, and yes, they called each other funny names -- but we were all Americans. I have no idea what the background of FDR (the first president I remember) was, or most of the other public officials to whom I have been exposed since that time.
Why, all of a sudden (the past few years), have we become a country full of descriptive adjectives? American politicians are -- or should be -- Americans. The country they or their families came from is not why I elect or listen to them. The people they are, what they accomplish, what they believe, and what they are doing (or will do) for their country is why I put them in a position where they can make decisions for the rest of us. Am I missing something?
Pat Lorimer.
Richmond.
Reader Reactions
Not so fast, Randy & Greta.
I provided nine, not three, names of current or former CIA & FBI experts, all of whom surely Randy verified, have voiced water boarding is slow and not reliable, and that verbal manipulative interrogation techniques taught by CIA & FBI are better. If (?) you look you will find comments that water boarding and torture emboldens our enemies as a recruitment tool for new terrorists. (So, perhaps anyone who supports water boarding and torture, supports terrorism?) Of the nine mean, six (Soufan, Maddox, Alexander, Herrington, Deforrest, & Kleinman) are/were “hands-on” field interrogators.
Randy won’t acknowledge what these CIA/FBI interrogators have said. Why not, Randy? Randy won’t provide us even three names of CIA/FBI interrogators who say water boarding is best means, at least better than skills taught by their agencies. Why not, Randy? Has Randy failed abysmally? What has Randy provided as CIA/FBI interrogators?…Here’s three names: Ross Mackenzie, Al Franken, Joba Chamberlain. I knew Ross & Al have not served as CIA nor FBI interrogators, but had to look up Joba. Golly Randy. The guy is a baseball player, never having been in CIA nor FBI.
Poor Randy. I don’t hear any liberal screaming and crying. I also don’t hear Randy providing facts, like expert names and comments.
Greta said, “I cannot imagine any individual with a career to protect or promote is going to come forward and say, “I was a torturer for the CIA and you bet it works.“ Greta, you are now free to not imagine. Was on April 20 President Obama went to CIA hdqts and said he would not pursue prosecution of CIA operatives who used interrogation practices described by many as torture. He condemned the aggressive techniques, including water boarding, shackling and stripping, used on terror suspects while promising not to legally pursue the perpetrators. So, for those CIA guys who did some water boarding, they are free to do their patriotic duty, serve their country well, and declare “water boarding works best”. Perhaps Randy can tell Greta & we all, even ONE name of such who has declared such in last two months? As Joba has heard, “batter up”.
hey truth(?) are you the only one allowed to chery-pick info.If O bama wasn’t afraid to release the memo’s Dick Cheney requested you may have your answer,not that you want one.It’s easier to whine.
I’d sleep better at night knowing our military had the full backing of the commander-in- chief to do whatever is necessary to keep US citizens safe.Your ilk wants to tie one hand behind our back to make it fair.
It took Barack Obama 4 days to deal with 3 teen aged ‘pirates’ in a lifeboat.That’s what I mean about tying hands.The seals could have taken them out sooner if they’d had clearance to do so.Let’s hope Obama is a little quicker to respond if necessary to the North Korean ship in the Pacific.If they lauch a missile, Obama will have four minutes and not four days to respond.His (and your) attitude about so-called torture is what keeps me awake knowing you guys are afraid you might hut someone,even if its the enemy.Stupid.
By the way Ali Soufan is NOT the final authority on EIT effectiveness.That’s just his opinion and you know what they say about those..you are one.
Greta - the problem is how torture is defined. Liberals tend to want to classify ANYTHING that stresses a terrorist as an act of torture. Since liberals are in power, we’re simply going to have to live with their definition of torture until somebody with some brains and some guts gets into office.
As you can see, we’ve extended our hands out to those who hated us under GWB. Here’s the results so far:
Iran, North Korea and Syria are ramping up provocative actions and Pakistan is substantially destabilized.
We’ve seriously offended Britain and Israel.
Hugo Chavez is laughing at us with much more comfort. Obama’s election has probably added several years to the life of Fidel Castro.
Nice.
In this current atmosphere I cannot imagine any individual with a career to protect or promote is going to come forward and say
“I was a torturer for the CIA and you bet it works.“
If anybody is waiting for that to happen in this era of save a fly and go to heaven they will be waiting a very long time.
And waterboarding, according to a friend who was house mother for a frat house for years, was a standard hazing proceedure that was considered a lark by many of those same college boys who are now horrified by this “torture”
inflicted on terrorists who would blow us all to bits…
Not so fast Truth - I asked you to provide better means - you failed abysmally. You gave up three names - so what, I didn’t see three superior techniques.
Here’s three names:
Ross Mackenzie
Al Franken
Joba Chamberlain
I’m sure all three have opinions on torture and interrogation and think there’s better ways of doing it - so, let’s hear it - what better ways are there to do it that wouldn’t have a liberal screaming and crying?
We’re waiting….....
We await Randy to find another way to be persuasive, just as long as his way is “focused” in naming 3 CIA and/or FBI field interrogators who say waterboarding, is more effective than current CIA/FBI-taught techniques. After all, per Randy, “I don’t support torture, but, I do support waterboarding.“; thus, he has proven facts to support waterboarding as best means; facts he will provide all via those 3 names?
“If there were more effective and expedient ways, why were they not being employed?”…oh, but they were.
“Never use DUH in response to another person’s post when you don’t know the answer yourself.”….Well, excuse me. You are totally right, in that I do not know the answer. So, early this morning I searched for answers from sources more knowledgeable than I, but perhaps not as so knowledgeable as that of Randy.
At May 13 Senate committee mtg and behind wall to disguise his looks, as he is still an active FBI interrogator of terrorist suspects, Ali Soufan testified water boarding and other enhanced interrogation procedures caused a key Al Qaeda operative to clam up, not provide actionable intelligence as former Vice President Dick Cheney and others have claimed. Soufan told the subcommittee that after Abu Zubaydah was cooperating, a CIA team led by a “contractor” began to use increasingly abusive interrogation techniques - over Soufan’s objections - and Abu Zubaydah stopped talking.
Soufan is among other interrogators, such as Eric Maddox, Matthew Alexander, Stu Herrington, Orin Deforrest, Steve Kleinman, whose experience proves that using physical force to “break” detainees is not an effective way to obtain information. Other CIA experts, such as Bob Baer, Milton Bearden, Tyler Drumheller, voice using verbal techniques; same ones taught within the CIA & FBI.
Surely Randy must distrust these CIA & FBI experts, and will now, provide his list of CIA & FBI expert interrogators who have voiced “torture works better than verbal expertise”. No mumbo-jumbo from Randy, please. Just CIA/FBI names; 3 will do, along with their support of torture being better than current approach taught by their agencies. We mere novice will do the researching to verify Randy’s “expertise”.
CBW - I don’t support torture, but, I do support waterboarding. Problem is, that your side of the discussion has moved the boundaries of the definition of torture so far out of whack that you would define making a right handed person write a note with their left hand torture. Turning off the TV before “The View” comes on? Torture. Adam Lambert losing on American Idol? Torture. Did you know that Adam Lambert was gay and lost on American Idol? Torture and a Crime against humanity. Tommy ate my Lucky Charms? Torture. Obama kills a fly - hours of coverage and PETA gets involved. Torture (and murder). The liberal threshold of torture seems very different than that of normal people. Normal people want their kids playing competitive sports - while liberals work hard to eliminate dodge ball. It seems like anything remotely challenging, difficult or stressful is grounds for a hearing at the Hague.
Because I made the statement that humankind has been torturing for thousands of years doesn’t mean I support it - I am addressing it’s effectiveness. Frankly, if it hadn’t been so effective, governments would have dispensed with it’s use long ago. I had buddies in Special Forces who used to take 4 or 5 Viet Cong up for a helicopter ride. When they got up so high, they’d toss one of them out of the Huey - the rest sang like birds with accurate information for fear of being next. It works.
When your side of the discussion actually becomes concerned enough to do away with abortion, I’ll sit and listen very intently to your lectures about our morals, our civilization and who we are as a people. Otherwise, you’ll simply have to find another way to be persuasive.
Randy, there is no historical evidence what so ever that torture has worked for thousands of years. Quite the contrary, I wonder how many false confessions were achieved by the inquisition, plenty. Torture is just a confirmation of the cruelty of human nature and the hatred that is built into many societies, and it has no place in American society, at least I thought it didn’t until I have read how many people strongly support its use on this thread. It has been turned into a partisan political issue, rather than an issue of our own values and morality.
Studebaker, I am not sure how to take your comments. I was mocking the “reverend” and others who simply pick and choose verses from the bible to justify their actions. I was using counter examples to “reverend"s he!!fire and damnation tone. The bible is so riddled with contradictions as to render it useless when looking at it as a whole for moral guidance, hate these people or this thing, while on other pages it says to love everyone without condition. For people to rely so heavily on an ancient book of myths, legends, and morality tales that has been amended countless times to the point of being unrecognizable compared to the original texts to make sense of the modern world is…well…well, I’ll just say it shows how badly people DON’T want to do their own thinking and have others do it for them. They simply fear the reality they live in and bury themselves in the bible so they don’t have to face that reality or inconvenient truths.
Here’s two more torture techniques that I’d like to see eliminated or changed:
1. Income taxes.
2. The Census being managed by ACORN.
Post a Comment(Requires free registration)
- Please avoid offensive, vulgar, or hateful language.
- Respect others.
- Use the "Flag Comment" link when necessary.
- See the Terms and Conditions for details.
Advertisement