Letters to the editor
Why Do We Permit Public Prayers at All?
Editor, Times-Dispatch:
As a proud, card-carrying member of the ACLU, I have followed with interest the efforts to compel allowance of strongly sectarian prayers by State Police chaplains. Your editorial, "Clerics & Klansmen," helped to focus my thinking.To be sure, a KKK member offering a prayer for the advancement of whites only would be repugnant almost beyond belief. You noted that the Nebraska Supreme Court upheld the firing of a state trooper who belonged to an arguably related organization. Presumably, the trooper challenged his firing on the rights of "assembly" and "expression" guaranteed in the First Amendment. He did not offer a public prayer extolling white supremacy, as your hypothetical posited.
I am struggling with the outcomes in both instances -- not because I defend the conduct or associations but because I must defend the First Amendment. It is similar to the conflict I feel about smoking in restaurants -- which I personally abhor. But I have my concerns about government prohibitions.
Why is prayer being offered in a public context in the first place? Prayer has no place in a secular governmental context whatsoever. If there were no such prayers, there would be no such conflict. The Wiccan priestess who incredibly (but predictably) lost her case before the Catholic-majority U.S. Supreme Court a couple of years ago would have had no issue if there had been no prayers allowed at all at county supervisor meetings.
About six years ago, the Supreme Court upheld congressional content regulation of art displays funded by tax dollars. Most people applauded that predictable decision, and it brought home to me the realization that there is no "free lunch"; all money has strings attached. The unasked question there is, why should taxpayers forcibly fund any arts or humanities at all? If there were no such public funding, there could be no discrimination. Why also do we have taxpayer-funded religious chaplains?
If prayer (or comment or art display) is allowed in a public context or on public property, then I believe a government may not regulate it. I must cast my lot with the First Amendment.
H. Watkins Ellerson. Hadensville.
Editor's note: The chaplains affiliated with the State Police are volunteers.Decline of Religion Shows In Declining Morality
Editor, Times-Dispatch:
Your recent news story, "More Americans Say They Have No Religion," reports the decline of religion in America. It is also important to compare the statistics quoted alongside the continuing cultural declines in our country.In the earlier days of our nation, a law passed in Congress requiring that schools be instituted for the purpose of teaching religion and stated: "Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government, and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education, shall forever be encouraged."
The charter for the College of William and Mary, founded in 1692, states in its purpose: "that the Christian faith may be propagated to the . . . glory of God."
Today we see the public education system, from kindergarten through university level, removing any reference to God. The minds of the future parents and leaders of our country are being instilled with a disbelief in a just and righteous God.
Our culture today is showing these signs in the breakdown of families, delinquencies, immorality, dishonesty, and greed. It is shameful to see the ongoing faces of those elected or appointed in the new administration who have shown no remorse for cheating the government out of taxes they owed.
The Founding Fathers were not perfect, but they had the God-given wisdom to bring into being the framework for the most successful form of government in history.
Kathleen Seward. Richmond.
What's Good for Unions Might Not Be Good for All
Editor, Times-Dispatch:
Joseph Ayers, president of Teamsters Union Local 322, takes issue with an editorial opposing the so-called Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA). Among other things, he chides you for not providing sources for your assertions. He chooses to do so, citing the Center for American Progress Action Fund. If you go to that group's Web site, you find a pro-union, "progressive" organization that openly advocates the passage of the bill. Hardly a proper, unbiased source.Ayers says if the union work force in Virginia increased from 5 percent to 10 percent the union workers would gain $1 billion in wages. He fails to explain that that $1 billion would probably come from consumers, so the net gain for Virginia might be closer to zero. Just the same old transfer-of-wealth argument.
He further claims that union workers are more productive, and make work places safer, and that strengthening unions is the way to make the economy grow -- all without evidence except his opinion.
I can understand his position. He wants more money in his pocket and more power in his hands. I am among those who will pay the bill and lose control over my life.
I oppose the bill.
Verle Johnston. Goode.
Politicians Must Listen To EFCA Objections
Editor, Times-Dispatch:
I am strongly against the Employee Free Choice Act. It serves as a further deterrent to my business and all industry.As a small business owner, it concerns me that elected officials would even consider such a bill. They must consider the voices against the bill before moving forward.
Scott Lovelace. Richmond.
McGuire Is Driven, Positive, and Experienced
Editor, Times-Dispatch:
Too often in politics, the public must choose between an individual driven to bringing positive change to their community and the well-known candidate who promotes rich relationships and steady-handed experience. In the race for the 55th District, House of Delegates, there is a candidate who possesses both qualities at once.During the race for commonwealth's attorney two years ago, Rusty McGuire knocked on nearly every door in Hanover, campaigning as a fresh face in local politics and offering innovative ideas for the office he sought.
In tandem with this vitality, McGuire has 20 years of experience serving his country in the Army. This includes two tours of duty in support of Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. When not in uniform, McGuire has worked in the attorney general's office for both Jerry Kilgore and Bob McDonnell and he currently fights crime as the deputy commonwealth's attorney. McGuire also belongs to a number of community organizations including the VFW, American Legion, and Rotary Club. McGuire also helped his brother build one of the most profitable fitness businesses in the Richmond area.
McGuire has shown how the common man can overcome difficulties in life through perseverance, hard work, and determination. In the Republican primary on June 9, we don't have an either/or decision to make. Join me in supporting the driven and experienced candidate -- Rusty McGuire for the 55th District.
Jim Driggs. Mechanicsville.
Reader Reactions
Randy: You did say:
“I have no idea where the card carrying members of the ACLU get the notion that any kind of discussion is just fine as long as it isn’t of a religious nature” Posted by ( Randy ) March 22
I take that to mean that the ACLU is against ALL religious speech—and they are not. They often defend the rights of Religious people as I pointed out:
Following Threat of ACLU of Virginia Lawsuit, Officials to Agree Not to Ban Baptisms in Public Parks http://www.aclu.org/religion/discrim/16230prs20040603.html
**
All I want to know is why it is that when I read letters, postings & books of Born Again Christians, more often than not the way of it is angry finger pointing. Same thing when I over hear Born Again Christians talk amongst themselves and when I speak with my Christian friends and acquaintances.
We who are not Born Again ought to be able to look to Christians for examples of Godly living; but it is difficult (for me anyway) to find a Christian that stands out from the rest of the world—except maybe for a chip on their shoulders.
I mean no disrespect to you Randy. I thought things over before entering posts on this topic; and I mean (earnestly) every word. The other day, when you agreed that the “problem with Christianity is Christians” is the closest to expressing to me any sense of accountably for misbehavior in our world by any Born Again Christian. And I respect you for that.
But I do think I deserve a real answer; and I believe that in your heart you know this is true.
What greater threat to a nation can there be than millions of verbose Born Again Christians who behave no better (and often worse) that the rest of the world.
The world deserves an answer.
Respectfully,
Studebaker.
studebaker - False witness? Tell that to the Boy Scouts, tell that to towns that had to remove nativity scenes from their Christmas displays, tell that to Judge Roy Moore in Alabama who had to take down the 10 comandmants from his courtroom and tell it to the coaches who cannot pray with their players at high school sporting events.
Sorry, you really went a long way for nothing.
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS
“a very vocal minority that is trying to shove their atheistic theology (sic) down everyone else’s throat, while all the time accusing those of us who believe in living our faith of doing the same.
“tactic designed to do nothing less than create animosity between different groups, whether they be political, social, religious or otherwise. The left has defined the debate for too long in this country because those of us on the right haven’t had the ‘nads to take them on. It is frustrating, but I pray that the debate is shifting (if I can still do that).” Posted by ( Henry’s Ghost ) March 23
“We seem to be cherry picking what certain amendments to the constitution mean based upon the whims and ever-moving goal posts of American pop culture.”Posted by ( Randy ) March 23
I am sorry to be so judgmental, but sometimes I wonder about people who believe they share of Christ’s sufferings on the cross and still live in this world—not a life of their own, but of the selfless Jesus alive within them; and at the same time are prone to speak with a bold confidence of the Godly & of the ungodly. I don’t understand why American Evangelicals lay claim to God’s grace and a sacred commission as His emissary to this world; yet continue to go “to and fro upon the earth and walking up and down on it” just like everyone else on this planet—only while doing so they shout the name Jesus, and often with clenched fists. Indeed, many American Christians do openly regard themselves as “Christ’s Ambassadors.” But, I see little that is Christ-like in the American Evangelical character—and I’ve be watching for decades. Where is the Fruit of Christ’s Spirit? Where is the “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance?” Where is the “city on the hill” the “light of the world” & “the salt of the earth?” I don’t see any Christ in the vast segment of American Popular culture who call themselves “born again Christians.” This may be harsh, but I’ve thought about these things carefully; and I believe I’m right on target. I see an American Popular culture of people who pretend to be Martyrs & take it out on others; promoting, in Jesus name, a Carl Rove-style Politically Correct Popular Gospel of Crybabies for Jesus. No one persecutes them; and they don’t even bare their imaginary crosses in a Christly manner:
“Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven…”
Evangelicals have been the single largest political constituency in the U.S. since 1979. And I thing a very good case can be made that they are largely responsible for any moral decline that may have occurred in our country.
studebaker
Hello Randy and all:
‘…the problem with Christianity is Christians, no doubt. Makes it tough to go to church some times. Romans tells us that ALL have fallen short - not just “religious people”. I’m only aware of one perfect man in the history of the world. It ain’t me either.’Posted by ( Randy ) March 22
The trouble with humanity is humans. And human we are, every last one of us—religion or no. I did not mean to suggest that only “religious people—have fallen short” and I do not judge any man (or woman) against perfection—for the perfect is far beyond my ability to comprehend. But I am able to perceive a glimmer of truth, a “still small voice” amidst the clamor of this world. I am not Christian, nor am I religious; yet, I often find myself explaining the Gospel of Christ to people who claim to believe—irony of ironies.
**
“While the government should not mandate a religion, it shouldn’t handcuff it’s public servants from doing spiritual things with everyone else - like coaches who want to pray with players at school and chaplains who pray with police officers.” Posted by ( Randy ) March 22
“Handcuff” is way too strong a word to describe the actual way of things. The State Police chaplains are not forbidden to utter the name Jesus:
Colonel W. Stephen Flaherty asked “Department chaplains to offer non-denominational prayers at Department-sanctioned, public events…The Colonel respects those chaplains whose convictions and beliefs are in conflict with his request, and is affording those Department chaplains the opportunity to decline participation at Department-sanctioned, public events. The Superintendent’s request does not affect chaplains offering their services at private ceremonies (i.e. funerals) or when counseling individual employees and their families in their time of need.”
Under Ban, 6 Troopers Resign as Chaplains http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/24/AR2008092403471.html
Five state police chaplains quit over prayer restriction: http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-09-25-0151.html
The Chaplains quit their ministry to fellow State Police, in Jesus Name! What kind of Christian testimony is that? What little respect they have for the commandment: “You shall not misuse the NAME of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his NAME.” Their mouths are clearly more important to them than their ministry.
**
“I have no idea where the card carrying members of the ACLU get the notion that any kind of discussion is just fine as long as it isn’t of a religious nature” Posted by ( Randy ) March 22,
Randy, I think you are too eager to condemn the ACLU. No one should judge and condemn any other person or group of persons out of hand. In your posting above, you, whom I presume to be a Christian, bare false witness against the ACLU, which regularly defends Christians whose religious freedoms are threatened:
Following Threat of ACLU of Virginia Lawsuit, Officials to Agree Not to Ban Baptisms in Public Parks http://www.aclu.org/religion/discrim/16230prs20040603.html
**
CONTINUED NEXT
Greta - I completely understand what you mean in your distinction between religion and spirituality.
The ACLU acts as the ultimate censor of what is and is not acceptable discourse in the United States. They love porn, but, they won’t tolerate a high school football coach praying with his players. They love the Klan, but, hate the Boy Scouts - go figure.
Until the ACLU starts acting with a degree of intellectual honesty, I won’t have a kind word for them.
Randy- I think I said that religion was created by men and SPIRITUALITY is between a man and his God.
I admit I am not a an advocate for any organized religion.
But I have no objection whatsoever to anyone who is.
Voluntary prayer should always be acceptable.
I went to boarding school in Europe, with nuns.
Religion was hammered at us morning noon and night. I memorized enough rote religion for three lifetimes.
I learned quite young to separate the religion from God and we have been getting along very nicely ever since.
So no, I have no problem with prayer at all.
My problem is with the ACLU. A necessary evil if there ever was one…
I’m not suggesting, Greta, that the government pronounce that everyone become a Methodist or Baptist, I’m suggesting that nativity scenes shouldn’t be banned and coaches should be able to voluntarily lead or otherwise participate in VOLUNTARY prayer. Since, as you indicated, that religion is between an individual and his God, then, shouldn’t a group of individuals / athletes who believe in God and want to pray before or after a school sporting event be allowed to pray together? If the expression is voluntary, what’s the problem?
The problem Randy, is that there is a very vocal minority that is trying to shove their atheistic theology down everyone else’s throat, while all the time accusing those of us who believe in living our faith of doing the same. It’s called “deflection”. It is a tactic designed to do nothing less than create animosity between different groups, whether they be political, social, religious or otherwise. The left has defined the debate for too long in this country because those of us on the right haven’t had the ‘nads to take them on. It is frustrating, but I pray that the debate is shifting (if I can still do that).
I think the point is that, for example, the Fifth Amendment still means the same thing that it did when it was written.
We seem to be cherry picking what certain amendments to the constitution mean based upon the whims and ever-moving goal posts of American pop culture.
God love Mark Twain et al, however, I’ll take my first amendment guidance from the crew who wrote and lived it.
Wasn’t it John Adams who said that our constitution was written for a moral and religious people?
I’m not suggesting, Greta, that the government pronounce that everyone become a Methodist or Baptist, I’m suggesting that nativity scenes shouldn’t be banned and coaches should be able to voluntarily lead or otherwise participate in VOLUNTARY prayer. Since, as you indicated, that religion is between an individual and his God, then, shouldn’t a group of individuals / athletes who believe in God and want to pray before or after a school sporting event be allowed to pray together? If the expression is voluntary, what’s the problem?
There is no doubt that this country was founded on Christianity.
If this were 1775 there would be no quibbling about prayer being appropriate in every setting. Religious or secular.
However, in my estimation religion was created by men. Spirituality is between an individual and their God.
I hope you don’t mind a few quotes.
“Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal that has the True Religion-several of them. He’s the only animal that loves his neighbor and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight.“ Mark Twain
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be asked.“ Unknown.
“All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt with different holidays.“ Cathy Ladman
“Things that will destroy a man: Politics without principle; pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity; worship without sacrifice.“ Mohandas Gandhi
“Religion is the fashionable substitute for belief.“ Oscar Wilde.
Well Studebaker, you’re right, the problem with Christianity is Christians, no doubt. Makes it tough to go to church some times. Romans tells us that ALL have fallen short - not just “religious people”.
I’m only aware of one perfect man in the history of the world. It ain’t me either.
I do believe that Christianity does encourage better behavior between men and women, particularly when considered in complete context.
My apologies if I misunderstood your meaning. Traditionally, when I see a discussion regarding the first amendment and the notion that the founders did not intend for us to make public proclamations of a spiritual nature, along with quotes from Thomas Jefferson, my experience tells me that it is a treatise on why God should be kept out of the public square no matter what. The history of our country illustrates otherwise. While the government should not mandate a religion, it shouldn’t handcuff it’s public servants from doing spiritual things with everyone else - like coaches who want to pray with players at school and chaplains who pray with police officers.
I have no idea where the card carrying members of the ACLU get the notion that any kind of discussion is just fine as long as it isn’t of a religious nature, but, considering that the founder, Roger Baldwin was a communist, I suppose I ought to understand their sentiments.
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